Marvin Shilmer

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Posts by Marvin Shilmer

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  9

  Do JWs Really Listen To The Elders And The Governing Body?

  by minimus in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  there are a few hardcore believers that will do whatever they are told to do but i think a majority do whatever they decide to do.

  they are not coerced into anything.

  they publicly work along with the program but in reality, do whatever they want to do.. i think the leaders have their hands full..

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Listen? No. Most just want to be pointed without having to think for themselves.
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  305

  McKinney Texas pool party?

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. social
  2. current

  so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

  my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

  i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  ...the people in the cities DID attempt to leave the city as the jobs moved out to the outskirts, but were not allowed to....

  To buy that assertion as true I'd have to believe that not a single person living in one these communities you speak of made their way to a better future by working to that end. I don't see any reason to believe such a thing.

  What you and others are doing is looking at the tail end of this situation, at ta generation who suffered from the brunt of it, and saying "life isn't fair, but they should have come up with a way to fix their own situation, oh well,"

  I'm not suggesting what folks of yesteryear should have done. I'm talking about what folks living and breathing right now should be doing, and starting in their own homes.
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  80

  Is RIDICULE acceptable in online debating?

  by nicolaou in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  this topic was inspired by one of fhn's comments on the 'warzone' thread, so i'll just restate my post there .

  .. "i've been wondering for a while now if ridicule really is an unacceptable feature in debate - it certainly isn't a valid form of argumentation.

  the thing is, some individuals really do come out with the most laughable nonsense and parade it as a serious proposition that merits attention.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  I was trying to be clever...

  What on earth are you talking about?

  You were extraordinarily clever in my book!

  What you said could not have been more true. You cannot make a horse think its a ass because a horse is not an ass.

  PS: I think I'd have said, You can lead an ass to water but you can't make'em see that they are an ass.

  Does that work?
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  305

  McKinney Texas pool party?

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. social
  2. current

  so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

  my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

  i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  ...oppression on citizens forced in ghetto enclaves...

  The longer I live the more this ghetto theme loses traction with me.

  Governments don't pull communities from ghettos. Communities pull themselves from ghettos.

  Name the social disease (slavery, poverty, discrimination ...). There is no peoples on the face of planet earth whose ancestors at some time in human history have not suffered horribly due to one or another. None of these peoples were emancipated from ghetto-like environments by a government. Each that found its way from such an environment made their own way out by owning their own future and working hard toward a productive end. Even European Jews lucky enough to survive Nazi Germany had to claw their way back from poverty despite being relieved from Nazis by Allied forces. They started by cleaning the streets in front of their own living quarters.

  The world we live in is cold and hard. We can't make it warm and fuzzy for anyone no matter how hard we try. For children we try to make it easier, but they have to eventually grow up and understand their life is going to be no more than they are able to make it, and with some luck maybe a little better than that.
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  26

  I want serious answers from WT leaders, possible?

  by Powermetal4ever in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what would happen if i would write a physical letter to, for example, the branch office.

  and ask questions about scandals like the ngo thing and other stuff?

  or ask questions about wtbs economy, or ask for a annual report, which is something i would really like to read.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  What would happen if I would write a physical letter to, for example, the branch office. and ask questions about scandals like the NGO thing and other stuff? Or ask questions about WTBS economy, or ask for a annual report, which is something I would really like to read. Thats impossible to get, or?

  You'll never get an honest straightforward answer from Watchtower on a specific question of a tough subject. Never. It does not matter how you get the question to its leadership. You won't get what you're looking for.
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  35

  Are we seeing the beginning of the end for Kingdom Halls?

  by nicolaou in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after all, "at this time,over 13,000 kingdom hall projects and 35 assembly hall projects are needed worldwide.".

  hmmm, not too sure about that but all the recent re-branding seems to be heading .

  could this be the long game?

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Several decades ago I recall Nathan Knorr musing aloud about taxes. He said "It's okay with me if the United States starts taxing us, so long as they make the Catholic Church and every other religion pay taxes too."
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  305

  McKinney Texas pool party?

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. social
  2. current

  so today i was asked my thoughts on the pool party incident in mcminney, texas.

  my response: it shows a clash of expectations.

  i saw police officers who expected citizens to listen to and follow instructions.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Can no one learn how to fix a fence or do something constructive? There has to be more to life than sport. Yes, it's an escape but only a very temporary one for most people. A true escape takes a bit more effort and commitment than playing the game you like to play.

  From my experience, you start with what draws the target audience and you grow from there. It just happens to be the case that basketball is a good draw for a lot of kids in poor communities. But so is bicycle riding, tennis, baseball, football and other activities (like swimming at a pool!!!). But getting kids' time and attention is, I agree, just a beginning. From that other life lessons and habits can be encouraged through leadership, including the value of education and civic responsibility. But a lot of kids living in poverty have trouble seeing a way out of the circumstances they hear adults talking about so they end up wasting away thinking there is no way.

  Oddly enough, of the many folks I've talked to about finding success in life though raised in poverty, quite a few have said when they were growing up they didn't know they were poor. They didn't feel held back by poverty because they never realized they were living in poverty. In each instance of this the parents were responsible for not teaching their kids that they lived in poverty. I found this a novel idea and it really resonated with me. I recall instances of watching our dogs play under the house when I was laying in bed at night looking through cracks in the floorboards. It never occurred to me that we were poor. I knew a lot of kids we went to school with seemed rich by comparison, but otherwise I thought most everyone else had big cracks in their floorboards just like we did. I thought we were normal!
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  80

  Is RIDICULE acceptable in online debating?

  by nicolaou in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  this topic was inspired by one of fhn's comments on the 'warzone' thread, so i'll just restate my post there .

  .. "i've been wondering for a while now if ridicule really is an unacceptable feature in debate - it certainly isn't a valid form of argumentation.

  the thing is, some individuals really do come out with the most laughable nonsense and parade it as a serious proposition that merits attention.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  Hey, you can lead a horse to water .... but you can't make them see that they're an ass.

  A horse should never see itself as an ass because a horse is not an ass and an ass is not a horse. But, me thinks readers get what you're trying to say!

  Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

  Oh, and a horse that thinks it's an ass, well, I'd say the real asses better watch out, and everyone else should get ready for a mule or hinny!
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  80

  Is RIDICULE acceptable in online debating?

  by nicolaou in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  this topic was inspired by one of fhn's comments on the 'warzone' thread, so i'll just restate my post there .

  .. "i've been wondering for a while now if ridicule really is an unacceptable feature in debate - it certainly isn't a valid form of argumentation.

  the thing is, some individuals really do come out with the most laughable nonsense and parade it as a serious proposition that merits attention.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  What if they are so intent on looking cool or knowledgeable or whatever it is they are trying to "look" that other posters watch them just tear in to posters over and over to the point that on one can concentrate on the actual topic?

  You're asking about how a community should respond to abusive and/or needlessly disruptive behavior. In the case of JWN that falls squarely to the sights ownership to do with as it pleases. Those of us who are not owners can, if it is allowed, share our opinion with the sights ownership. But basically each person has to decide if they want to subject themselves to whatever is allowed in the given community, which in this case is JWN.

  Frankly, I'm perfectly happy with a wide open forum because I'm perfectly happy to let educated readers decide as they will based on what is put before them. This was how the original H2O functioned, and I found it useful that way. What fools make of things, do or say is not something I tend to worry about, unless their actions present an imminent threat to my person or family.

  But I can function in this comparatively tame environment.
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  80

  Is RIDICULE acceptable in online debating?

  by nicolaou in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  this topic was inspired by one of fhn's comments on the 'warzone' thread, so i'll just restate my post there .

  .. "i've been wondering for a while now if ridicule really is an unacceptable feature in debate - it certainly isn't a valid form of argumentation.

  the thing is, some individuals really do come out with the most laughable nonsense and parade it as a serious proposition that merits attention.

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  Marvin Shilmer

  The issue is though that humans are very emotional creatures. As a result, to some, a person's character and their views are indistinguishable.

  When speaking of debate I'm speaking to discussion of argumentation, conclusions of that argumentation, and whether the form of argument is valid and/or the resulting conclusions are viable based on premises offered in the argument.

  To argue that a person's character means a particular argument they offer is unsound or false is argumentum ad hominem when the argument and/or conclusion is of something other than the individual's personal character.